On Thu, 19 Jan 1995 07:32:38 -0800 > said:
>Charles writes:
>
>>  I see no moral reason why I should support a person who is able
>>  to work.
>
>What?  Even if the decision to support such people was democratically arrived
> at?
>
--That's a political decision.  And I know of no country, including
Sweden, that takes the position that work is optional for those able
to work.  I used to have a publication by an economist in the pre-
1988 Soviet Union which stressed the necessity of work as a duty of
the citizen to the state.  Sweden has a public assistance program whose
official pamphlet read something like--"limited assistance is available for
those who cannot work."  Even if a country democratically arrived at the
policy that one could live as well whether working or not and that
one simply had to exercise the option, I wouldn't find the policy
MORALLY--caps for emphasis, not shouting--compelling, although I might
have to live with it.  There are many people in my business who
claim to believe that the state should support people whether they
make a contribution to the society or not just as a right of
citizenship.  This isn't even good socialism.

Charles

Tibor:


        Are you sure that it was 10 years ago that the first MacDonalds opened
in Hungary? I would have sworn that it was only about 6 years ago.

        I`ve eaten there aswell. The food`s not bad, but the prices are
ridiculous! I remember about 7 years ago when the whole family (of 4) ate a
2 course ebe'd in Pest (hus leves and csirke porkult with a large dish of
oborka salata) for less than 500 forint. Now for the same amount of money
you can just about afford a Big Mac and, if you lucky, a small coke!


        Karcsi

The January 23rd issue of the New Yorker has a fascinating in-depth
essay on the Hungarian-born financier George Soros. With his interest
in and impact on foreign aid and foreign affairs, readers of this
Discussion group may find the article of some interest.

C.K. ZOLTANI

Dunaujvaros Foiskola (somehow connected with the Miskolci Egyetem). The
foiskola doesn`t yet have a homepage on the Hungarian network, but may have
ftp address. I managed to find the file with the university`s email address,
but I cannopt remember where this file was, or the email address.

        Any help would be most appreciate. The gentleman`s name is Csippa'n
Ja'nos and he is a 1st "undergraduate".




        Karcsi

On Friday, the 20th of January, 7 pm
                                 =====  (sorry)
at the Embassy of the Republic of Hungary
      2950 Spring of Freedom Street, N.W.
               Washington, D.C.

    Recital by Kriszta Kovacs (piano)

Program
=======

Beethoven       Sonata No.26 in E flat major, Op. 81a  "Les Adieux"
Chopin          Ballade No. 1 in G minor, Op. 23
Chopin          Scherzo No. 2 in B flat minor, Op. 31
Granados        "Quejas o la maya y el ruisenor" from "Goyescas"
Liszt           Un sospiro - Etude de concert
Liszt           Apres une lecture du Dante
                          fantasia quasi sonata

R.S.V.P. (202)-362-6730 Acceptances only !

Date sent:  20-JAN-1995 08:51:47

 There are many people in my business who
>claim to believe that the state should support people whether they
>make a contribution to the society or not just as a right of
>citizenship.  This isn't even good socialism.
>
>Charles

It's amazing:  I find myself agreeing with Charles.  Either I'm becoming
kookish, or he's becoming boring and normal.  Personally, I hope it's the
first...


                        Thomas Breed
                        

                "Like Prometheus still chained to that rock
                        In the midst of a free world"

Charles writes:

> And I know of no country, that takes the position that work is optional
> for those able to work.

Last time I looked there was no law in this country requiring one to be
employed.

--Greg

>Hello, Netters
>
>I would be appreciated if someone could give me a hand to translate
>a song for my friend ( from Hungarian song into English).
>
>Thanks.....
>Montri S./ Mahidol University

Send me the text and I'll see what I can do.

Tibor Benke

On Fri, 20 Jan 1995 08:57:05 -0600 > said:
>
>                 becoming boring and normal.
>
--To borrow Owen Wister's phras from *The Virginian*  When you
call me that, pardner, smile!

Charles

On Fri, 20 Jan 1995 08:00:38 -0800 > said:
>Charles writes:
>
>> And I know of no country, that takes the position that work is optional
>> for those able to work.
>
>Last time I looked there was no law in this country requiring one to be
>employed.
>
--Is your argument that work is optional for Americans?  No, there is
no law requiring one to work, but there is very little provision for one
who makes the choice not to.  I don't know of any country that requires
work as a matter of law, but other than welfare recipients caught in
the poverty trap, the reward system clearly in favor of the employed.
Unless you count university professors, of course, who do get paid
without working.  Joke.  Remember I are one.

I have reviewed your posts and they show a definite lack of any source on
your part.  You asked me to quoate sources then you try to discredit them
without fact just some personel drivel that would even insult an interligent
RUmanian. You on the other hand failed to supply a single source for your
ficticious facts.   You just make them up as you go along.  At one point I
quoted an American so you accuse me of being American. NOT..!  Your
ignorce shows more and more.  You totaly ignore the FRENCH and
BRITISH sources I quote. I was careful to be fair and NOT to quote any
Magyars.   I have an interest in the fact NOT in your silly interpritations.
You set the challenge and then you failed to follow up.  You do a disservice
to those you pretend to serve. It's very clear you're incapable of addressing
facts.   You posses no real knowlage of times, places or events.  You can
only supply your own interpretive family drivel. Infact your position is Sooo
weak you felt it nessassry to resort to name calling more then once.  You
made false accusations and you tried to prove your point by making fun of
my shitty typing/spelling skills.  The way you argue only weakens your own
possition.  It has become obvious you are NOT able to understand that
which do so I just forgive your ineptness.  Though we are at differant ends
of this agument tried to look for and found areas where the truth was the
same for both side:   ie:  That there had be enough killings and atrosities on
both sides.  I have gone further to say I realize that there were things done
by Hungarians that were inproper.  You have taken these and tried, though
unsuccesfuly to twist my statements to make your point.    You poor fool.....

You have accussed me of being a nazi and  of mental illness for holding a
view other than yours.  That's exactly what the nazis did to those they
hated.      You have made claim after claim without fact that I am an
American -expletive- because I quoted , an American diplomat David
Hunter Miller and because I referred to the actions of  The Congress of
the United States of that time.  Well you still have don't even know who
or what I am.  You can't even figure out where I'm writing from though
it's right there in front of your face.

I have supplied international sources contemparary to that time to back
the position I take. And it was something you demanded.  Then you talk
of your sources your family claims. When you need references you
go to you grandfather or your uncle to hear what you want to hear.  You
have quoted no authors or documents.  You have not aloud me to do the
same even though I had no intention of doing so.  You see me in cahoots
with all those I quote.  Boy you so desperate.  I see you are finding hard
to defend the lies you mutter....:-)))))     I hope you can forgive me for
enjoying that  hehehe...!!!..

You convieniantly ignored the fact that I quoted from La Guerre Revient (1933)
authored by  French writer Henri Pozzi.  Does that make me A French American
Hungarian...?  You are sooooo Silly hahahahahaha......!
Ohhh.... Yeeeaaaa... I also quoted The RUmanian Ion Bratianu speaking to
Dudley Heathcote an Englishman in reference to the intended liquidation of the
ethnic Magyars within a 10 year period.  So lets see using your equasion I must
be British, American, French, Rumanian, Magyar. AAAHHH HAHAHAH...!

In your arguments you have quoted  no International Athorities.  You have
failed
miserably in backing up anything you say.  After this post you won't even
answer
cause, you possess no facts that you can backup.  NON...!!! Quick go ask you
Family.   I know what you would have said to me,  if I had tried to quote my
father or mother.  Yet you have only been able to quote family yourself. At
least
I took what I see as the High Ground, quoteing Internation sources of that
time.
Non-Hungarians.  You called me names and made fun of my spelling mistakes.
I don't need to bend the truth, the truth is on my side. While you are a
bending.

So I have corrected your missunderstanding about the meaning of the word nazi.
Are you man enough to thank me..?  I noticed you have choosen to ignore this
fact since you lost your argument.....  No matter... However, I suggest that
next
time you choose to call someone names you learn the meaning of the word you
are using and be sure it applies otherwise people will just laugh at you.

HEY Caucesue was a RUmanian leader lots of RUmanians followed him
happily   It was the Hungarians that initiated his overthrow when they would
take no more.  Your claim that Causesue destroyed Rumanian villages too in
noway justifies his systematic attempt to destroy the magyar history and
culture
of  Transylvania. It is also and unfortunatly too easy to point at Rumanian
mistreatment of the Maygars within present day Rumania.

Your attempt to discredit people by spewing forth garbage only makes you
look bad and no one else.  In future if you want to argue on a topic it is not
enough to believe family folklore.  People tend to take certain positions for
reasons of their own choosing,  for this reason family retelling  can be and
often is one sided and tainted by their motives.  I will teach you this much so
you can better know the truth.  It is better to know your enemies.  It is not
enough to cling  to some bit of information you happen to feel comfortable.
An intelligent man also gets to know his enemies.  In your case vilifying
Hungarians without knowing them and refusing to bend to facts that actually
prove the position you take wrong only ad to your ignorance.  I loose nothing
by it.    Infact you hand me an easy victory.

Ohhhh by the way THANKS for making it sooooo easy......
But I realy did not need your help.  I would have better
enjoyed a stronger challenge.  That's not to say I am never
wrong or that I can't be taught anything.   Infact it happens....
But I have learned you are only weak and very Wrong......

Pali....
###################################
         Pal Gyoni  (  )
                 \/\/arm Greetz Everyone.......
***********************************
           Lost somewhere on the InterNet.......
         If you should find me, tell me....hehe....
###################################
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      _/    _/ _/_/     _/        _/  _/   _/   _/
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_/       _/    _/  _/ _/ _/ _/    _/   _/_/

>        How common is the name Ragasz in Hungary?

>        Norb


I have never heard it before.

Eva Balogh

Magyarositani = to make sound ( as like) Hungarian

Magyarazni = to explain

and finally magyarozni is not a word!

According to Tibor Benke,

>Nothing in history or social science can ever be a matter of fact.

That is new to me, and it must be unique to Tibor's way of looking at things.
But ordinarily we do distinguish between facts and interpretations in history
and social sciences. Let's say: "Admiral Horthy was elected governor of Hungar
y on March 1, 1920." Is that an interpretation? Certainly not. I am attaching
no value judgment whatsoever to this statement and you can read all the
contemporary papers and I dare say not one of them will say that he was electe
d governor on March 2, 1920. However, if I say, "Admiral Horthy, who was
elected governor of Hungary on March 1, 1920, was an excellent politician."
That is certainly an interpretation or a value judgment, with which, by the
way, almost everybody who knows the facts, would disagree.

Further Tibor says,

>We are talking past each other.   It is not a synthetic  (in the Kantian
>sense of the word) problem we are talking about, but an analytic one.

I just have to admit that I am just a stuck-in-the-mud sort of historian who
is primitive and naive to think that progress and capital accummulation are
important for the well-being of the inhabitants of a country.

As for your further observations:

>What for you are the more developed
>areas are for me the metropoles, what you call backward I call a
>hinterland, and areas like Hungary are in the semiperiphery.   Wealth flows
>from the hinterlands to the metropoles through the semiperipheries in
>assymetrical exchanges.  The third world isn't poor because its backward
>and less 'civilized',  it is poor because Europe has been robbing it for
>some four centuries and is continuing to do so.  Central Europe is not poor
>because it has always been backward but because it was always either
>colonised or in the semiperiphery of a metropole.

Oh, come off it! Africa is not poor because of earlier colonization. As the
matter of fact, some of the African countries were economically better off
during colonialism than now. And if you think that Hungary (or any of the
other countries) is poor because of the Austrian connection you are wrong.
The old nationalistic interpretation of Austrian colonialism of Hungary doesn'
t hold up. As far as I know Russia never was colonized and yet, it was a
great deal more backward than the rest of Eastern Europe.

Somehow I don't think that the Hungarians living in Hungary will be terribly
impressed with your philosophical stance on progress. I bet what they would
like to do more than anything else is to have the kind of material progress
Sweden or Germany, or the United States, or Canada has. And I am with them.

Eva Balogh

Date sent:  20-JAN-1995 21:12:15
>
 As far as I know Russia never was colonized and yet, it was a
>great deal more backward than the rest of Eastern Europe.
>
Respectfully, Pipes wrote that many of the economic problems in Russia's
history can be traced to the Varangians who, while they did assimilate,
retained a colonial attitude toward their domains (as opposed to the Normans
who eventually started to develop their land).

Secondly, in way it can argued that Moscovy colonized the rest of what
would become Russia.  The destruction of Novgorod and Pskov during the
Oprichnina and resettlement of Muscovites there seems to fit into the
catagory of colonization (considering Novgorodians didn't call themselves
Russian, but rather Novgorodians).

>Somehow I don't think that the Hungarians living in Hungary will be terribly
>impressed with your philosophical stance on progress. I bet what they would
>like to do more than anything else is to have the kind of material progress
>Sweden or Germany, or the United States, or Canada has. And I am with them.
>
>Eva Balogh

>From the standpoint of desirability, most societies would want to be like
the West.  This might be a Faustian situation, however, where a higher
standard of living is exchanged for a liveable environment (assuming
Capitalism is not able to develop methods of preventing environmental
decay).  Exchanging clean water (we can always drink Coke :) for microwaves
may turn out for the worse in final CBA.  (And if not, I'll be very happy
and admit all the capitalists were right!).


                        Thomas Breed
                        

                "Like Prometheus still chained to that rock
                        In the midst of a free world"